WATCH AGAIN: Demystifying pricing and usage.

Transcript:

Emma Alexander: Welcome, and thank you so much for joining us today for demystifying pricing and usage with Tom Burns brought to you from Wisern. Wisern is a career development platform connecting creatives to industry-leading experts on demand, so you can access one-to-one support to help grow your career. My name is Emma Alexander, I'm the founder of Wisern, and I'm joined today by pricing and usage expert, Tom Burns. Tom is a Senior Agent with photography and film agency At Trayler, the wonderful people At Trayler, and he co-founded the exhibition-turned-creative-network Unsigned, while working at BBH. He is hugely passionate about supporting independent talent to grow, which is precisely why he's here chatting to me today to talk about what is arguably one of the trickiest and murkiness areas to navigate when you are a photographer, whether you have an agent or whether you are independent: pricing and the Holy Grail of usage. So, thank you, Tom, thank you so much for joining us today. I know people are really pumped to dig in and get your knowledge. Let's kick-off, tell us a little bit about yourself, your journey to date and how you got to where you are.

Tom Burns: Thanks! So I started at BBH, which is a global advertising agency, where I worked in a production team, the wonderful production team over there, for around four years. And during that time there, you know, my real bread-and-butter was Unsigned: setting up the Unsigned platform, which was all about acknowledging emerging talent and giving them a platform within the industry. So for about three years I worked on various different exhibitions and magazine publications for Unsigned one side and we managed to build a network of over 120 different artists across photography, illustration, and film. And that ultimately led me to switch to the sort of Dark Side of production and join the agenting world! And At Taylor and Rare, which is where I am at the moment. So, yeah, really excited to be here and chat about all things usage and pricing and answer any questions.

Emma Alexander: I must say, Unsigned is still going! Obviously, you've now left BBH, but Unsigned is still going and a really amazing initiative, I remember when it launched and just thinking this is so great, it's exactly what we need. And as art buyers, it was exactly what I needed to just tap into that amazing pool of emerging talent. So, let's go, I want to dive straight in with the big stuff, right? Let's talk about your day rate, setting your day rate. So how do you approach this as an agent? How do you approach setting someone's day rate when you take them on? Take us through that process…

Tom Burns: So when we are in discussions with a photographer, when we want to sign a photographer to join the roster, and we've got our eyes on people that we really like, there's a really wide discussion around various different things like their strategy, where they're positioned, what the clients we feel are right for them and, of course, a wider discussion about their rates, and how they think they are positioned, and what value they believe they are working with. And I think it's an important thing to know, as part of our journey, when we're signing photographers and working with photographers that it's a very collaborative process, we like to hear the photographer's side of things, like where they think their position is, and all of those factors build that specific rate and how we would market and position them for commercial briefs. And so, you know, once we come to that sort of mark, it gives us a really good benchmark to work towards, and we are putting them up for jobs and whether that's junior level to midway to expert, you know, it gives us a good frame to stick to and, as their journey develops, as they get more experience as they become more established as they gain a wider client network, that's when their rate increases as well. And, you know, we always have those discussions, we like to keep it very transparent, of course.  

Emma Alexander: All that nice, collaborative process kind of makes sense. I guess when you take that yeah, they are already working so you know, they haven't they have a day right? They're already set up. So do you Yeah. Do you ever just tear out the rulebook and say no way you should be doubling that or do you do it quite gradual process? How do you normally approach that?

Tom Burns: Sometimes? Yeah, because you know, part of that whole process is and a lot of, you know, this emerging talent, they don't, sometimes they don't have the confidence to know where they stand or the value of their work and the value of what their sort of, you know, expertise is to that campaign. So, you know, they might be charging themselves half of what they actually could be getting. So, we have that conversation and kind of, you know, build them to make them feel and know that they are worth more. And ultimately, it's beneficial to both of them and us as well as agents.

Emma Alexander: Off course yes, So, whenever we talk about, so what are the different ways you can price a job because I know there are, there are different ways you can approach it, it's not just this is my day rate, this is my figure, this is my fee, what are the different ways that you can approach it creatively when you are approaching a brief?

Tom Burns: Well, there's, you know, there's different ways you can do it. And, you know, working at trailer, and we do try to kind of follow a sort of day-by-day rate, and use that as a guide. And personally, I would always, you know, advise, we get a lot of inquiries through asking for photographer’s sort of full day rate versus their half day rate. And we always kind of say, you know, it's industry standard, that photographers will charge a full day, we don't offer half days, because, you know, whilst the deliverables of a client might be that the photographer turns up and has to capture one or two images, and they might only be there for a couple of hours, you know, there's still other things to factor in is the travel to that shoe, it's the preparation, it's getting the lights, lighting set up, and all the kit prepared and ready in a taxi or whatnot. So, it's always important, we always try and push as much as we can to charge a full day's rate and a day by day, especially when you're dealing with sort of commercial clients. But there are other you know, other things as well, like, that might work better for photographers, you know, retainers, you also got project fees, retainers I  which we've kind of encouraged photographers to, to kind of get into to have under their belt, because, you know, whilst the money might be less, it does offer consistency in it offers the consistent sort of, you know, income of money, you know, because the reality is, sometimes photographers might not be working for months at a time, and if they've got a retainer under their belt, gives them that sort of influx of cash, you know, kind of quite small, 

Emma Alexander: But what kind of like, coz I remember retainers were a thing, you know, years ago, and certainly the advertising, you know, your, your, your clients and advertising agencies, clients are on retainer, regardless on based on how much work they think is going to come over the course of that year. But often, photographers still use retainers, like, is that still a thing? And what kind of areas? Did you tend to find?

Tom Burns: Yeah, I mean, social, I'd say, obviously, we're kind of expanding much more into the social world, a lot of clients are just relying on social media to kind of put out their advertising and that content. So, it's about sort of identifying those small businesses on social media that may be small at this stage, but are still growing. And, you know, the photographer getting in there and offering, you know, a lower rate in return for consistent work. And, you know, the benefit is, yes, there is no continuity, you get an influx of money, but you also get to grow with that, that business and see it sort of developing something, which I think is something you know, a lot of photographers should focus on, because, you know, the potential is, is far more.

Emma Alexander: I have seen this work really well actually with a lady who was an ambassador for a particular brand, and was doing one or two images for them a month on a on a regular retainer basis. And then they wanted to use them for payment. And then she said, oh, we'll actually let you know, this is my print usage. And we'll come on to this. Yeah, I know. But it was a great way of opening the door for her. And suddenly they realized that she was a viable option for a much bigger slice of their comms work, which was a really smart way of getting in. You touched on Project feed IVs project feeds before for both big budgets and small budgets, but I know people tend to say, oh, it's for when people prefer to squeeze in a lot, a lot more, you know, and under a smaller budget. What's your experience? Do you use project fees? And when would your kind of advice a photographer, take that kind of lump sum for everything?

Tom Burns: Yeah. And to be honest, I've got less experience in that. But I have had that and it's more sort of announced at BBH. We're dealing with, you know, illustrators and animators often get sort of this thing from the client. And they might want to sort of, you know, they might want to reach out to various different illustrators for this one particular project is actually helping with photography as well. It happened recently with a campaign I've worked on for added X. And, you know, they say, look, we got this budget, we're going to split it up and kind of let the photographer or the or the artists kind of work within that sort of within that sort of value. I think audio fees work for people for sure. But I think in order to make them work and to make them viable for those artists, they just need to be really clear in terms of exactly what they're committing to, as part of that project fee, and just being really sort of transparent from the off, because it can come back to bite them a significant thing. And eventually, so if they aren't sort of clear and as transparent from the off, sorry.

Emma Alexander: Yeah, actually You're right. And my experience of doing it on a, on a really big scale was a was a shoot over in in Canada, when I was an art buyer in ad agencies. And, and we were getting into the detail, it was really granular about, you know, what if it does this many days, but we might need to go to Rikki. But maybe that takes two days, Rikki. And in the end, the agent said, Look, you know, and I think it was something like $90,000, he's like, he's going to deliver this job for 90 grand. And if he has to go on an extra day, Rikki like a flying mm from LA into Canada, he's going to be there for a week, he's going to work on this job per week, the deliverables were set, the usage was set. So actually, if he if he has to go and do a night shoot, he doesn't care. He's there. He's committed, it's going to live a job for this amount of money. And that was where it just took the pressure off. Like, it's six days, it's five and a half minutes, Ford doesn't matter. This is the job. This is the output; we're going to do it. But it was it was a larger sum of money that actually, you know, him going to have another afternoon. For 90 grand, who cares? All right, yeah. So actually, it's nice now. Rather than just being about you, you do office, five, grand, two grand, whatever you catch, you put the other way is not for this money, I will do that job within these parameters, a really smart point that you make there about ring fencing. And so, this is going stuff back then if you're if you're not going to bundle it up in a retainer or in a project fee or something like that. You've got your day rate. Now I know. And hopefully, you'll know that your day rate is not your total fee. So, what is actually what's right, what's kind of expected for you to include in your quote, so your day rate is there, but what other things should you be pulling out and not wrapping up in your day, right?

Tom Burns: Hmm, from my point of view might like working as an agent, you know, it's we, we know. And we kind of discover exactly what it is that the client needs from the sort of initial conversations that we're having. So sometimes it's you know, they might come to us, and they might just want us to budget for the photographer's fees only in which that will include, you know, their base shoot rate, any prep any travel days, and post production days where they need to kind of sit down all the edits together, if there's sort of like grade or color balance, versus if there's any retouching requires. And all those sorts of factors would go into that sort of photographer’s fee category. And then any other, any other bits, any sort of crew any lighting, and it can't hire or any other production would be an additional sort of lines to that estimate as well. So yeah, I think, pretty much yeah, it's always good to kind of set the day right. And that day rate is, you know, inclusive of, you know, a nine, day nine, nine out of nine days, right, nine-hour shoot for that photographer, and then everything else is kind of on top of that.

Emma Alexander: Yeah, that's really interesting point at Ring, ring fencing and protecting your day. Right. That's a really good point. I think sometimes we feel a bit scared about, you know, putting together massive terms and conditions and things but I think yeah, that's a really good point, just literally putting this as my day rate on the on the basis of X number of hours for you know, during daylight, daylight hours, or whatever it is kind of, so it doesn't run away with you, because I have heard people assume that a 12-hour 15-hour day is going to be the same rate. And so, I know sometimes people will sometimes say they're a bit reluctant to kind of list out items sometimes itemize their, their quote, because they feel like that, you know, there's a risk of kind of pricing himself at the market, you know, it can feel like overkill. What's you’re feeling about that?

Tom Burns: I think yeah, I mean, I agree it could be a risk to them, and they might sort of out you know, out price themselves to the to the client. But ultimately, I think if anything, it just shows you are kind of really thinking about it, you understand the requirements of the brief and you are kind of doing your due diligence, and that's what it what it should be about. If anything, and if you know the clients want and have the right sort of mind on them. They're just going to look at that and know that you as a photographer Are you know, thinking about everything, you're making sure that you're being specific on what the exact deliverables are and what you will need to kind of capture and get those deliverables. And if anything, I just think it works in your favor and making you look more to the detail crossing T's dotting your eyes.

Emma Alexander: Actually, I yeah, I completely agree with that. I think when you don't have the safety net of an agent when you are working on your own, I think there's a there is a confidence element. Nobody said that before, I really got my putting too much on my asking too much. But I think I had an incident recently where I was commissioning, somebody gave him the, the budget bracket. And they came back and said, we'll do it all for a third of that. And I was like, you want to put your travel on there, that now includes my travel. And I started to worry that they were not going to be sufficient, you know, they're not going to be kind of, you know, I don't know of a standard to actually deliver this job because they haven't perceived the gravity of the brief. That's about they were amazing. But yeah, that there was that that worry about? Is this person going to be a risk for me because they don't understand the thing? And I think in commercial advertising, it's actually expected, doesn't it, it's expected that you will list out things like your kit, for example. And bits and bobs like that.

Tom Burns: well, like, it's often sort of a big expense to that photographer. So, people won't expect just to get free care, they will always expect to hire that. So, it's important that, you know, you kind of hold on to that value. And you know, see it as almost insurance, if anything happens to that that's money out of your own pocket. So always try and retain that just go to this light on because it's just turned off awkwardly during the I mean, we work today so yes.

Emma Alexander: It's good. Just that still doesn't move. Yeah, actually, it's a bit like supposed to be like really charged mileage, isn't it? You know, don't spend 45 Pence tomorrow on petrol, but actually that is all your wear and tear in your mot and that that wear and tear on your, your car. Alright, let's so pricing. Great. I know everyone's here for their head. To hear about usage. This is the minefield, right? Start the beginning. What is usage? What is usage? Why is it important? And why should we be charging it?

Tom Burns: Usage? Yeah, the minefield that is? Yeah. I mean, usage is basically when you know, when a project is done, when it's complete, and you've got the assets, that's how you know how the client is going to use that image. Like, it's the agreement between the photographer and the client, which outlines various different sort of factors that kind of determine how they can use it, it's essentially like renting, you know, renting an image, you as the photographer will always own outright copyright on that image. And then it's just that agreement that kind of defines the three different sort of factors which are territory, so which countries is that going to be seen in? Is it going to be, you know, a UK only market versus a Europe or even global, and the length that the image is going to be used? Or that sort of content is going to be used? So, is it going to be you know, one month, is it going to be one year? Is it going to be 10 years? And then and then on that as well, you know, you know, I shall come back to that, but and then the other is obviously the media, so that's going to be out of home, is it going to be pressed is it going to be all of those as a TV, so all those bearing different factors will kind of determine what that usage is, and the sort of the value of that image that is being sort of in negotiation with the client. And, you know, we obviously, we, as agents, we often get inquiries for people to kind of buy out the images of the photographer, so that they'll have sort of in perpetuity, and they can use it however, whenever they want. But I think a really good tip, when someone does ask you for that, is that, you know, really, don't be afraid to kind of question that, because the reality of that is no image is going to be us for as long as you know, a lifetime. Everything changes, trends, change, styles change, and, you know, people within that image change like this, that no image is going to be used, the reality is no image is going to be used forever. So that gives you the sort of leverage to kind of push back and say, you know, can we can we strip it down a little bit if the budget perhaps isn't quite so high? Can we kind of reassess the usage that you're that you're that you're wanting, based on these various different factors? And I think, you know, on the question of why it's important, for creatives to charge usage, I mean, the one of the most, the first thing I'd say is that obviously, it's your, it gives you the license and this sort of the, the authority over your imagery, and basically, so it gives you the control of your work. But also, you've got to think of it from sort of a, you know, sort of a client's perspective, this image or this piece of artwork is being used to promote and to sell this brand and ultimately make them more money. So, there is you know, when that quantifies, you know, that gives your image a lot of sorts of monetary value. So, you know, just remember that a lot of people kind of forget that, you know, the is for these big outdoor campaigns are going to be seen everywhere. That's a lot of people seeing and That's a lot of sales that are going to be made on behalf of the image that you've created for them. So, you have the leg and the leg to stand on, when you ask for that money on it. It's a lot.

Emma Alexander: It's such a good point in terms of mindset, your image of helping a brand to sell and make money. And I know, we all know that. But I think that's a really good little mantra to kind of, to keep in mind, isn't it? Actually, your Yeah, what you're what you're providing, as has massive value. And actually, there is a monetary value attached to that. So, you need to pay for it. Yeah, that's brilliant. I absolutely, in fact, that's one of my takeaways of the day, it's going to be keeping that at the forefront. And I do see a lot of clients more and more these days. Asking for is complete by asking for this, you know, all media or territory in perpetuity, because it's easier, and they've often told me, it's because it's easier for them to manage their asset bank, and especially the bigger, bigger, you know, global agencies, where they're sharing assets in a kind of asset library, across different territories, it's so much harder for them to, to have to bother. It's not like it's not impossible, it's just a bother to manage their own Asset Library or, or kind of put dates against it. And then to chase up those renewals if they want to renew it. So, they're just saying, ah, skips just by just getting to, you know, get it in perpetuity. And don't want to pay for it. So, I think, yeah, you're right, scaling back products, and never going to have the same packaging, you know, you don't have the same line in 2,3,4 or five years’ time. So yeah, getting some sort of benchmark in there, I think is really is really important on principle. And actually, it's a really key point, you're saying, yeah, yeah, the idea of why we should all why we still charge it was something I wanted to ask as well, I see a lot of photographers’ kind of wrapping all up together and seeing the whole, you know, see the whole thing, and not really charging, not really calling out or charging usage. How do you feel about that? Is that okay, is that damaging to the industry? Or is it actually the new wave just working? To make it easier for everyone? What do you reckon?

Tom Burns: I think, you know, it's a hard question to answer, I think it's a case by case, you know, like, the reality is, like, we are faced with sort of less and less budget, smaller budgets nowadays. And we are also, you know, in a market, in a very competitive market for photographers, there's so many more photographers out there doing, you know, work that's very similar to others. And, you know, it's a competitive market. So, I can understand why a lot of photographers might bundle it all together, and do it as one fee to kind of, you know, keep their head above the water and to kind of compete and ensure that they are kind of getting their best foot forward, I think it I do personally, you know, think it's good to separate the users from the shoot fee. And then it's, it's, when you interrogate that brief, and you kind of understand it more, and you kind of look into it, what is the exact sort of ask of the client, it's, then you can kind of determine, you know, is this something that I can sacrifice usage on are the shoot days, you know, going to be 8 to10 days, that will mean, you know, a big influx of money there. And I'm willing to take the hit on usage to make sure that I'm within the budget that they're presenting, you know, various different factors? And also, it's a question of, you know, which I think is the most important question of all, is this project, is this campaign, right, for me as a photographer, and my book and the direction that I'm going in the work I want to be seen for? And if it is, the answer is yes, then yeah, maybe you can take the hit, maybe you can bundle it all together to make sure that you're, you know, putting your best foot forward. But at the same time, it's not, can you take a step back, you know, kind of respect to sort of an industry standard and kind of UP, UP trying to keep to that sort of standard as much as possible, and present a broken-down cost with on top of it, so I think it should be.

Emma Alexander: I think there's two things well, actually, I would say, I've had, I've had instances where, you know, work hasn't been used, per say, for whatever reason, they have not run that campaign. And that's happened to me, you know, several times over the course of my whole career. And so, I guess it's a way of actually protecting your going back to protecting your day, right? You've done your work, you've done your day rates, you've done the, you know, you've actually earned the money that you're due, and it's very clear what that usage license is. So, if you've created the work, you've done your job, fantastic. They don't use it, that's fine. Don't pay with the usage. It's, you know, so I guess it's a delicate balance of making sure that you are really, you're really going in with a strong solid day rate that you'd be happy with if these pitches were never used, which is such a shame but for various reasons that does happen. You know, making sure you're protecting Your actual day rate and your fee and covering your production costs and everything else that you have to put in, like you said, your prep time, the Edit time and not kind of watering that down into one, one bundle fee. But then also making money rate on that. Yeah.

Tom Burns: Yeah, of course, I was just going to say Just quickly on that I think usage as well, you can, you can kind of see it as a way of sort of quantifying the amount of work that you do put into it, you know, the reality is that a lot of the time projects might seem quite small and, you know, might achievable within what they've asked, but you know, the amount of calls that go into it, the amount of prep the casting everything that's involved, you know, it kind of makes, you know, the usage kind of quantifies that sort of stretch of work that's being kind of dragged out, over potentially a lot more sort of, a lot more days than, than perhaps were initially anticipated. So that's why it's always kind of good to try and try and push for it as much. Yeah.

Emma Alexander: And then going back to your original point, well, that's what it means territory. Sorry, territory media, I guess it's the number of eyes going back to that original point, which I think is so key that what you are producing is helping them to make money. So actually, if it's been seen Ireland, you know, in a regional newspaper in Ireland is very different to being seen on the side of a bus in the States, or China or Brazil, or like these massive countries and big territories. But actually, the number of eyes on your work. And the impact that your work has, is grossly disproportionate. So yeah, I think that's, that makes sense. I get a lot of pushbacks from clients. I feel like sometimes you start every job with in the classroom Educating the mind, why is it this this line item here? You don't own these pins? And we don't own the picture come on a long time, but it feels like we're having that conversation. All the time. Yeah, it's really frustrating from very established marketing managers, like, oh, this is part of your job, people will try and take the pace. Absolutely. And the mean, obviously, the magic question, I've seen a few, a few points coming up in the, in the chat box. About this, you know, what is? What is that? How do you calculate what is the magic formula? Hit me with it? Tell me the industry secret? magic formula we need to use?

Tom Burns: There is no. Yeah, you know, I think, unfortunately, I think, you know, there is there isn't, you know, a specific way, I think like I said before, you know, given that budgets are varying and a lot smaller. And sometimes you get these massive budgets, sometimes you get the smaller ones, you know, that kind of dictates where we kind of, you know, how much we have to play with. And unfortunately, sometimes it's the amount of usage that we can try. So, you know, there are resources out there, like the AOP calculator that are really good for especially independent photographers, and helping them kind of identify a sort of charge or rate that they should be, you know, charging for that for their work. But I find that sometimes it can kind of over cost. And so, you know, when you use that, can, you get a very good sort of understanding of, you know, what, your heights higher tier versus your lower tier you just going to be, and I think just the more experience that you have in it, you just become, it becomes more sort of intuition to you, and you kind of get a good sort of benchmark as to how you can win. 

Emma Alexander: When you don't have an agent, it can feel you're just plucking a figure out the air. And I must admit, you know, getting and the AOP calculators are brilliant, and certainly in their day, they were amazing. But the AOP do go put it in, it's like you should be charging 480,000 pounds, you're like, okay, I understand how it's got that figure. And so, is it actually a good idea? To sort of have a play with the AOP I would definitely push people it's such a great resource. And I Spiros has asked the question, what role does it play for you, I think just having a playing around with his figures and understand what the relationship is, between those fingers? Is it three times so this is twice this is three times for the states you got 10 times whatever you going to do getting a feel for that? That finding you’re the starting point for that I think is probably the clarity. Do you work? How do you do it? Do you work on like a percentage of your shoot V for example? Or you know, how do you do? huge, big fog?

Tom Burns: Yeah. So at trailer and at rare we do a percentage we work to percentage. And that person?

Emma Alexander: What do you mean by that? What do you mean by sound like a half? So again?

Tom Burns: Yes. So, I'll be I'll give you like an example. So, the percentage would be the percentage of the final shoot fees. So, say for example, we've priced at two and a half 1000 for the day, and it's a two-day shoot.

Emma Alexander: Perhaps, That's their turn up fee. Sorry, to interrupt. And then their expenses are on top. Yeah. Great. Okay. All their day race to turn up right. Okay.

Tom Burns: Yeah, that day, right. So, the day rates go and shoot on the shoot days to say it comes to 5000 pounds for the two days. And we are looking at sort of usage for one year, UK only, in sort of out of home and social media out home is quite a big territory, social media is arguably a very much more growing bigger territory, we might sort of price that around, you know, to match the shoot fee, so sort of like 100% of the total shoot fees. Maybe more, maybe it's 150. But let's say 100% of the total shoot fees, will then be an additional 5k. On top of that 5k Total shoot fee. Yeah, hoping that I've kind of gone at the right

Emma Alexander: Makes sense that that's a good little formula to kind of to have in your mind to start with. Yeah, definitely. I think something else.

Tom Burns: I was just going to say and just as our trailer, we always ask one another. So, every agent is different, every agent will have a different approach, it might change slightly. So, I think it's really important to kind of soundboard that against you know, other agents just to kind of get their stance, because ultimately, that will help you get to the best sort of outcome.

Emma Alexander: Great, actually, that's a really good point. So, using your network 100% using a network asking other people and one of our other experts’ kids circuses said that he wasn't. He is still is actually in a couple of WhatsApp groups. And when he was approached by different brands, when he was really scaling up his work and getting a lot more brands approaching him and saying I want to do this this sort of partnership work. He would he would just throw it out there and say, Guys, I've been given this, what would you what do you reckon? And people would come back with, you know, experiences that were, you know, 2,3,4,5 times where he was thinking of putting out there. So yeah, absolutely. Using your network and the AOP going back to them, but then they have a great forum. I know we're not allowed to talk about prices on there because of price fixing. And that's why someone has asked, could you give specific examples and numbers? I'm a little bit reluctant to do that. Because it kind of comes into the heart I think, I don't think the monopoly emerges committee are watching this. But you know, as soon as you start putting fingers against it, are there kids like us, Hello, gorgeous areas. And but you know, that once you start putting a finger against it, you are actually kind of getting into a little weird legal territory. But I think sharing amongst your network is very different thing. I have done this principle, similar kind of context. And I was going to mention was, I see a lot these days of suites of images, we want to do a library of images, but to have a suite of images to pick from, can we do up to 50? Or can we have licensed up to 100? Or whatever it is? I think my watch out there would be make sure when you're putting that lump sum down, divided by the number of images that you're giving because it's you know, it's great to think, oh, five grand, yes, it's great for usage. But actually, if you're doing 150 pound a picture, so we use the 50-pound picture. And they think actually, that's not even what you get on Shutterstock or something. So, in some places, rights managed. So actually, understanding how much it's costing per image is a really interesting way of doing it. I've had some really crazy budgets embrace before and when I've gone back to them said, you're asking for this. Yes, it's a five-day shoot, whatever you're asking for, like 1000 images at 27 pounds a picture. So no, no. Yeah, so yeah. Okay. So yeah, I guess my question was, you know, how do your kind of have you arrive at that figure? I know it's a bit of a minefield, but setting that data and then adding in other costs on top do you get? Do you get charged for usage from other people, i.e. other suppliers like stylists and makeup artists? Because I've seen a bit of a trend was people asking what the usage is? And then, you know, finally get on that basically?

Tom Burns: Yeah, I think so. Obviously, with rare with the rare side of the business, we work with food and drinks, photographers and stylists as well. And I think that's been nice of a conversation that I've heard, like kind of starting or hearing but I don't really know too much about it. But I think there are that there are those sorts of thoughts that you know, stylist in particular kind of share, you know, where we're building equally as much as the image that you are seeing so whereas our kind of piece of the pie Yeah, but I don't know too much about that. So, I have heard whisperings.

Emma Alexander: But that’s quite an interesting concept actually, in the in the chat box, I think it was Spiros put in earlier, you know, this idea of doing the buyout, I wanted all clients, this is going to in perpetuity becomes very messy when you bring in model agencies, that that should be our really big red flag and I guess our confidence bolstered to kind of to charge it, model agencies do not mess around, like you, they do not mess around, you know, get it in perpetuity, they will make you pay for it, they are so fast. And same with, you know, payment in independent kind of models. But yeah, model agencies will not mess around. Same with, as you say, this, this trend for actually, for stylists in particular, starting to want to charge usage is actually really interesting. So, people wanting to move towards it. So why as creatives are we moving away from shying away from feeling like we shouldn't charge it? Yeah, from a mindset point of view. I think that's really, that's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And we had a question that came in earlier, for someone who said, how do you deal with the never-ending requests for outright ownership, i.e., Copyright Transfer of images? Now, this is quite an I know, we sort of touched on this a little bit when we talked about clients during the buyout, but do you get requests for? Can we just take it? Can we just take it on the hard drive? Can we just take all the files and pick what we want? And how do you guys feel about that? And how do you work with your photographers advise them on that?

Tom Burns: We'd always push back on that, because, you know, I know passing over sort of full copyright is a massive ask. And it's like, you know, essentially sort of, you know, giving away all of your assets and like sort of losing all the control over it. And I do think though, that sometimes when we get those sorts of inquiries, people kind of get confused with sort of a buyout, a buyout versus like, let's say, so is there wanting like sort of in perpetuity versus, you know, the full sort of buyout on the copyright? I think sometimes people get might get those a little bit confused.

Emma Alexander: But how do you explain to a client? So how would you explain the new ones the difference between those two things?

Tom Burns: Well, I'd say that, obviously, you know, the copyright is giving away the sort of the whole ownership of those images. And it kind of detaches the photographer from it. Whereas if it's, you know, in perpetuity, you know, the photographer still has the rights to use that image. But they also do, but on an in-perpetuity basis, they're still renting it indefinitely, but the photographer is still able to kind of use that. Whereas with copyright, he can the photographer can lose complete control over that. Yeah,

Emma Alexander: yeah, I guess. No, I think you're right. And that that the usage terms still apply within perpetuity, you can still use online in perpetuity, that's fine. But you can't print it. And actually interesting, you can't sell it. That's also another question. You can't redistribute it or sell it. Whereas if you have the copyright, you can outside the confines of the agreement you have with your client, but if you assign the copyright, they can churn out T shirts, I can sell that image on Shutterstock, or whatever they want. Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting. So yeah, that's a really good kind of new one in terminology. What is the buyout license in perpetuity? versus what is actually owning and holding on to that copyright? Brilliant? 

Tom Burns: Yeah.

Emma Alexander: I wanted to ask you about, we've kind of touched on this, actually. But I want to ask you, how you, and this is going back to your experience of working with independent creators to unsigned it's really hard to know what other people are charging. I think this this industry, especially we are all, you know, as a producer, flying blind, going, just throwing a fee out there and hoping, hoping it works. How do you understand where you fit in the in the industry, without an agent, compared to other people? And that's both kind of your day rate and usage? And, but how can you advise photographers to, to get that feel for like, where they sit among their peers. And in this, this sort of, as you said, before, quite saturated industry.

Tom Burns: I mean, I mean, the first thing I'll say is really difficult. And I completely kind of like empathize with photographers that are kind of, you know, independent photographers, especially sort of starting out, they're trying to kind of like, make something for themselves and establish themselves and understand where they sit. I think, you know, it's very easy, and I think a lot of photographers are, regardless of whether you're doing it independently, if you've got, you know, Agent wherever they have, they seem to have like a lot of a creative network around them through be it through sort of assisting or various work experience is or the contacts that they've kind of met maybe through for Instagram, whatever. I think it's just having the sort of the confidence or I don't want to say confidence because I feel like it's just having sort of the fire in your belly just to ask the questions, you know, established photographers that have made a name for themselves are, you know, are where they are, and they would have been Same position, so don't feel like you can't approach these people to help you and guide you and kind of mentor you to get to that sort of answer. Because if anything, they're just going to be flattered. And nine times out of 10, they will hopefully help you and give you some kind of answer. And I think, you know, I love you know, I often have conversations with a lot of the online photographers, sometimes the illustrators about, you know, how much they should be charging, like, what, what usage should they put on top of this very, you know, very much the conversations that we've had today, and they're like, and, and I, you know, I always help them and I just want to help them because, ultimately, you know, the client is coming to them for their craft, they've got amazing work that book is great. And, you know, it's, it's, it's about you giving them that confidence and that belief in themselves to kind of have the comp the tough conversations and put a number on it. And I think in terms of determining that usage, yeah, use the resources like the AARP and speaking to people you know, Getty whatnot, but when it comes to figuring out a day Ray, you know, ours are that's, that's the simple, simple answer is all. I think, personally just slide into their DMS.

Emma Alexander: I think that's great, though. Yeah, we're so connected and yet so disconnected with social media, but it can really feel really nail-biting sometimes to kind of to make that to make that call and ask. Yeah, growing your network growing network, putting it out there connecting people absolutely. Think that's that makes sense. I guess, also, sometimes with pricing. It's just trial and error to a degree as well. I know when I started charging something completely different. But I remember someone asking me for something. I mean, going, yeah, that's my finger. And they paid it, I thought, all right, brilliant. So next person came on and doubled it, and then they paid it. I thought, brilliant. All right, I'm going to roll a headset, that's and I was just looking around, see what other people were charging for things. But then I went and doubled it again. And they didn't pay I thought, Alright, maybe that's time to scale up. But it was interesting to just trial and error, just get a feel for what you think. It's so hard to get a feel for what you think they're going to pay. It's so subjective, but I think you're right. Try it, try it, enjoy and, and keep conversations really open and ask for feedback. That's one thing I probably say when you are putting pictures out or you know, being asked to bid on something, if you don't get it, ask for feedback, and really, really push this when an art buyer and you'll notice as well get gets a job in. And then they commissioned someone, it's usually like, with that one person, and they don't always have time to sit down and go, thank you so much for very thoughtful treatment, you know, this is my feedback. But in the weeks afterwards, I really would follow up once, twice, three times, because I think if you've gone and done something for them, ie putting a quote together, putting a treatment together, it takes work and it takes time. And I really would hope that the art buyers, know producers and clients, market managers would respect that, and then take the time to give you feedback on why you didn't make that cut. It's very normal to have three or five people pitching, pitching, pitching, pitching, pitching for the same job. So yeah, I think I really have any confidence to keep pushing because I think you deserve that feedback and knowing that but definitely trial and error Yeah, just try to be cheeky,

Tom Burns: Yeah, I agree.

Emma Alexander: If you're cheeky you've got somewhere to go, you know, you've got something to go down.

Tom Burns: Yeah, and we get that a lot actually with all the sort of pitches that we work on with our photographers and if they are unfortunate to not get the job you know, part of that feedback or part of my response to their art I would be pleased it'd be great to know who got it because you know, they can use that as part of the feedback to know perhaps where the holes are in their work and it will just help shape and you know, put them in a better position for next time you know,

Emma Alexander: Yeah, I think it's good to know who up against these well because sometimes you have your gold silver when you're putting this together as an art bar which again, you'll know you have your kind of gold that was maybe a wild card at the side and think it's good for people to understand all what's gone forget Do you know what if I lost out to them? I'm cool with that you know? Yeah. I guess you know, come just to get mindset it can be really scary putting that quote out any tips for anyone for just making that leap? I never kind of just have that but what would you say? Like it I guess? I guess you have covered that getting that budget up front is probably a big a big thing like knowing what you're working with.

Tom Burns: Yeah, but also like you know, investing the time to create a budget yourself and the template because then if anything that just looks you know, professional and looks really good on your behalf. When you when it comes to sending out this Be really clear like write out exactly what you're delivering and you know, have a paper trail so that they can you know, you know what you're giving them and you know what's part of that money and If they come back and change the deliverables, and you can change that, and you can add, send someone over and other costs, by also think as well, like, you know, another piece of advice I would get there is add contingency. Because more and more especially post COVID, you know, things happen, you know that you might need to get some emergency lightings and care, whatnot, add it onto the budget and be specific that this contingency isn't us. This is money back to the client. And again, if anything, it just shows your due diligence and that you're all over it.

Emma Alexander: That's really good. That's really good advice. And what advice would you give, give your younger self

• Tom Burns

Invest in London, invest in a London property market. Yeah, and I would say, you know, if you're creative, then just continue being creative. Because, you know, it can be a challenging industry to be part of, especially when it comes to money and kind of making it work and standing out. But it is also a very rewarding industry to be part of. And it's one that I'm very, you know, happy to be part of. So that's what I would say to myself.

Emma Alexander: And why don't you have you have joined us here at one of our one of our latest experts, join the crew, why have you decided to join the wisern firm?

Tom Burns: Well, I want to, you know, I love working with emerging talent. And everything that I did with unsigned was, you know, my passion and my bread and butter. And I want to continue that as much as I can. And I think, you know, I've made progress in that sort of journey. And I want to be able to, you know, sit down once one and help facilitate creatives to kind of, you know, reach their creative goals, and what perfect place to do it. The milestones, I think.

Emma Alexander: Thank you very much. Well, thank you so much for giving us so much today. I think it was a, I can imagine there was a few pens, burning, like fire smoking from taking notes. And I've got time for a couple of Q&A. So, we'll take three questions. from the, from the chat box. What one that came in, right at the beginning from John. Hello, John was. So you have the same sort of brief one clients bigger, and the other one's a smaller business? How would you vary the price? Because you know, one, one client expects to pay this another one we're trying to get for cheaper? Do we vary the price your day rate, according to clients? Do you just vary the usage? And how would you approach that when you know that there's different budgets? 

Tom Burns: And I would well, yeah, I think it's about sort of try and get a budget from them a cost or a ballpark from them first, to kind of give, you know, then you'll know whether you can sort of bring it down and whatnot. But what we like to do, whenever we're kind of having these initial conversations with any clients that are inquiring about, our photographers, will always say, you know, they're asking about shoot fees, we'll say, their shoot fee is around this sort of area. So, it's not saying specifically, this is how much you will have to pay. And it's saying it's around that sort of area, but obviously pending on the budget, like how much we have, and whether it's kind of, you know, inch of interest that the photographer in question, then we can, we can come down and we can go up like whatever, you know, we'd like to sit with quite flexible. So don't say this is my right, this is that this will not change, kind of have that sort of flexibility in the way you word it, I think is the best way to.

Emma Alexander: I guess it's like when you're going for a job interview, and you're always kind of playing, you know, chicken, Honey, how much have you got? What's your current salary? What's your expectations? What, how much does? How much as this job? What's the salary band? What do you expect? It's the same thing? What's your budget? How much are you? Well, what's your budget? Whatever, I guess I've asked for I do not exceed, do you have a do not exceed budget, a figure in mind that you'd like us to work within? And that really quickly gives a benchmark and whether this is a complete waste of time, or, you know, perfectly lovely, you know, or feasible and also gets me to understand the scope of it. How much production do I need to put into this? Or are they looking for a shoestring kind of approach? That's definitely interesting.

Tom Burns: That’s very interesting, I write that down.

Emma Alexander: Because I'm afraid, cate says, I've started using blink bid. I just US base which I found really helpful for estimates and quotes. And being clarified requires Has anyone else use this or similar Have you come across blink bid before? 

Tom Burns: No, no. 

Emma Alexander: If no, in that case perfectly to follow up with you and you can tell me all about and Nina has asked, are things like day rates and usage limited to big jobs, like advertising and fashion or does the same advice apply for smaller jobs for the shoe is just like maybe just an hour? Or a small arts organization struggling to even afford your hourly rate? That's a really good point. We talked about setting and charging use it on principle, but does that really apply in the real world to other smaller jobs?

Tom Burns: I think it depends on the sort of the nature of the photography like Yeah, commissioned commercial advertising, photography, and sometimes editorial will kind of, you know, have that expectation. Whereas, you know, events-based photography might be more hourly, you might just be paid to kind of go and set up shoot, and then kind of leave. And that is, you know, that's where you can really charge that sort of hourly rate. But I guess it's, you know, again, case by case having that upfront conversation if they have the budget or allowance to cover usage, because, you know, there is usages might, there may be isn't massive usage, but I imagine for events, photography, they are going on the company's website or their socials, and, you know, there is that involved. So, I think it's just, you know, having that conversation, say, look, I, I know, the sort of the parameters of how my image will be used. And if they say no to you since then, then maybe that can, you know, that can be your sort of armory to kind of strip back and say, all right, if there's no use this, then I will work to a reduced number of deliverables for you. And then if you want any more, then we can explore usage for that. 

Emma Alexander: Yeah, that's a vast, really, she's scaling it back to what they can actually afford. And being really clear about that. You often advise people to get to negotiate. If they might want other usage further on, then, you know, to clarify that other start as well. So, you say, right, you, you might have a, I'll do this all wrapped up with a bit of you can use it online, or social only, you know, you can use social media and your website, only no paid media is another one. So, you're not pushing any paid ads, just purely for social content. I'll wrap that up into the, the, you know, everything else. However, if you want paid out, yeah, it's going to cost you this, if you want to print it, it's going to cost you this. And I think having those little bolt ones you can come back to are quite important. I know I've definitely seen that. I've negotiated that someone before and somebody wants got a 25 grand paycheck out of that. They came back and said, we're a UK based brand. We're now launching overseas; we want to use these pictures globally. In the states in China, we were like, yes. And that'll cost you 25,000 pounds. And they said, Yeah, there's the check. And actually, the woman in question did something really amazing with that money. And it literally changed her life. Quite so. I don't know the story. But I can Yeah, conservatives, you know, really, really does happen. It does. And I only say one more question. But I think it's really important. And Eva has asked, can you or should you request some of the budget up front for bigger jobs? I know how I feel about this, what do you think?

Tom Burns: Yeah, definitely, I think especially post COVID. I need it. So, I would always recommend that we you pay in advance. And if it's not to kind of pay your immediate fees, then it will be to pay your crews fees, which deserve the money first and upfront, because they're on much lower sort of rates. And you are so I would definitely always ask for sort of advances for bigger Jobs.

Emma Alexander: 100%. I am. I'm a massive believer in this, you are not a bank. So, you should not bankroll this job for anything. And I remember once I had a situation where I basically was over to cover almost 100 grands worth of fees across several jobs at once. I'm like this is meant up because it was comments, comments come in, and then we start paying out for things it's never pay out for anything of your own pockets. Just you never do that. Do not ever do that. And actually, to your point, Tom, I think that's great about your crew, one of our principles, Mother brand, my production companies that we people don't have to wait, you don't have to wait 30 days, mice here have it because especially your suppliers, you know, your team, your assistants, and yourself, we're all you know, all freelance but all just, you know no one's, well, maybe some of us might have less money coming in, but most of us don't have those. So, I don't think anyone should have to wait. And as soon as you're, you know, we don't get paid until that until the job's delivered. But your crew, they put those their invoices in the day after or the day of the shoot done, boom, invoice, their 30 day starts ticking immediately. So if you don't have the money to fulfill their invoice, you might not be in it for another month until the retouch is done then you are leaving yourself exposed or you're pushing it back onto them and saying you give me a free interest free loan which is essentially when it comes down to you know giving countries an interest-free loan not okay so yeah, don't feel weird about it but stated upfront that I'm going to need to invoice for the production expenses because shouldn't be buying lunch and paying for cabs and hiring locations and stuff off your own back. Absolutely not. So yeah, confidence conference. But thank you very, very much Tom for joining us. I think it's been it's an amazing I've learned a lot you've learned something. We've all learned something it's been amazing. And guys, we do if you if you want to talk to Tom about anything that we've covered today or something that we haven't covered today. Then of course you can find him on wisern and go to the homepage go to where experts and there is but one picks a session that time that works for you. We are actually giving away two free sessions today. And the first two people to go on to wisern and use the code “HELP ME TOM” can pick up two free sessions. I'm just going to type this into the chat box now so go in first two people to use that code “HELP ME TOM” can book two free sessions to try and help Yeah, help work through your positioning, your pricing, your usage, whatever you guys need to speak about that. Thank you very, very much. I'm sure we'll be hearing from Tom again. Guys. Thank you so much for joining me if you have any questions, by all means, hit us up. And we really look forward to seeing you again next time.

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